Mark Sisto is a name that should be familiar to most I-94 patrons. As Minister for Defence and backing vocalist for Radio Birdman in the 1970s, the Michigan-born Sisto was an important cog in the inner workings of the foremost Australian underground band. For most of its existence, Mark was a sounding board, inspiration and friend to Deniz Tek, a fellow expatriate American and the band's co-founder, guitarist and principal songwriter. Forthright and obviously full of a lust for life, Sisto's uniquely qualified to put Birdman's mercurial lifespan into perspective. But first, some background...

It's a matter of record that the Birdmen fell to earth in June 1978 after an acrimonious European tour from which Sisto himself was ejected for physically dealing with a violent threat to the band. After the band members and alumni had found their way back to Australia, Mark was chosen by Deniz to sing in his new musical project, The Visitors. The lineage included Birdmen Pip Hoyle (keyboards) and Ron Keeley (drums) and could only play inbetween Hoyle and Tek's medical internship duties. With Deniz living and working in Newcastle, a city two hours north of the band's Sydney homebase, The Visitors managed just 12 shows, every one an event in their own right. They left an EP (that later was later supplemented by unreleased material and became an album) as their only recorded legacy.

The band's last show (Deniz was heading home to the USA) coincided with a planned one-off reunion of Radio Birdman under the moniker, Comrades of War. Vocalist Rob Younger went MIA at the last moment, so Sisto and fellow former Birdman backing vocalist Johnny Kannis shared the microphone. With the Visitors gone, Mark moved back to the US and joined the Army to fly helicopters, but the mid-90s found him again living in Australia where he fronted another band, The Manifestations, a shortlived combo that included Hoyle (briefly) and another ex-Birdman, Warwick Gilbert, on guitar.

November 1999 finds him now living in - and singing the praises of - Detroit, Michigan, and planning a Christmas visit to Australia. We spoke to him after he'd dropped into the I-94 Bar, seeking beer and some old comrades.

MS: For starters I'd like to say I neither wish to mythologize about it all, nor am I out to burst anyone's bubble. I feel some have milked things out of it all, to excess.

CR:You're a Michigan native. Tell me a bit about growing up there. Did your exposure to music parallel that of Deniz?

MS: It's hard for me to say a LITTLE about Detroit. I love the place as much as ever. Detroit itself deserves a book. Exposure same as Deniz? Roughly yeah, but he is two-and-a-half-years older than me.

Things changed fast in those days. Detroit was a cutting edge city in those days. Things were more concentrated then. The future was unfolding fast. Lots of friction. There was the Vietnam War and whites were being pushed out of the city. At the same time there was what seemed like boundless growth. Many people came here from Eastern Europe and the US South, and found success. Detroit is working wealthy, both then and now, with a long history of severe ups and downs.

It IS damned friendly for a large city, with lots of boisterous humour. People neither give nor take offence easily. Its is probably the oldest of the 20th century cities. It's flat and sprawling like LA , except Detroit is heavily wooded. I never cease to wonder at the great trees here. It gives it a soft aura, I believe there is a symbiotic relationship with all these great hardwoods oaks, maples, elms, walnut....somebody stop me!

CR :According to Vivien Johnson's book, you met Deniz and the other members of Radio Birdman on a drunken night out at a Manly Vale show in 1975. Is that the case and what were you doing in Australia at the time?

MS: I was introduced to Deniz by a mutual friend, Lizzie? Doing? I was 19 out across the other side of the world in the big city.

CR: What did you think of the local music scene in Australia at the time you hooked up with Radio Birdman?

MS: I don't remember any bands I particularly liked. But Sydney was full of lots of young people that were full of...youthful enthusiasm.

CR: Radio Birdman had the reputation of not being a drinking/drugging sort of band (at least compared to some of their role models like the Five and the Stooges), yet a few of the stories involving you and them in the book have those elements to them. Did you want to throw some light on what those days were really like?

MS: The amount of drinking and such was about the same as other groups of young guys. I suppose, about medium. There was the occasional hurl or two. Masuak drank the hardest, but probably not any more often than anyone else. One of the guys smoked pot moderately. What are you ­ a shrink?

CR: What are some of the highlights of Birdman for you?

MS: I'll get back to that one later, but generally laughs, camaraderie, Australian girls, adventure.

CR : Was Minister for Defence a role you took seriously?

MS: In Australia the role was primarily one of "master of ceremonies"; the spirit of it was chiefly one of humour. In England, it was another story, there was actual threat to defend against. Some ass needed kicking, so it was. No regrets.

CR: I get the impression from Vivien Johnson's book that Rob in particular tired of having the Glutonics [Sisto and Johnny Kannis] on stage and that aspect all but disappeared in late '76.

MS: There was this film some guy made at a gig down in Hurstville [a southern Sydney suburb.] Apparently the film guy thought what was going on at our part of the stage was more interesting - he focused on us more than Rob. The film guy may have been a homo. He took shots of my legs and ass. It wasn't comfortable to watch. Rob felt we were upstaging him, but it was an illusion of the camera. But it was no biggie in dropping that (the Glutonics.) We had done as much as one could already. I had left for the USA in May of '77, anyway.

CR: Do you agree it changed a lot with the onset of the Funhouse and the creation of the fan club? What was behind the demise of the Funhouse?

MS: Before the Funhouse, almost all the gigs were "don't come backs". Funhouse was a big improvement, free of threatening bouncers that seemed to be everywhere. It ended when the owner wanted a restaurant.

CR: Flowing from this...what in your opinion were the reasons for the band imploding?

MS: I had left Australia before the Funhouse stopped, but after that things started getting bigger. (Things like gigs at) Paddington Town Hall and such - I wasn't there. I believe that, up until before then, I had a considerable influence on the culture of Radio Birdman. I probably had Deniz's ear more than the other non-Rob members. In fact, many didn't take much interest in the exact presentation of its public face as I did; we used to make these little posters with all this weird written shit on them .Through this ,but primarily in my intro monologues as M.C..I sought to inflict on the public what I've since found the name for: "cognitive dissonance" ... where the observer can't place the impression in a familiar category [and] it becomes a NEW FILE. It penetrates the psyche more efficiently.

Back to the point....things changed after I left. Things like Kannis buddying up with the Hell's Angels. Him and Chris partying with these guys. I was appalled. They [the Hells Angels] are a pack of dogs. A bad case of narcissism was developing.

I don't think they were handling success very well at all. I heard a few things that got back to me [in the States] like: "We are celebrities now, man". Also, addressing people in the Fan Club newsletter with "from your king". If it were another kind of band, like, who would notice the difference? I thought they were above all that crap.

To amplify the difference: It changed from a secret society to "rock stars admiring them selves in the mirror" (though, I wouldn't direct this criticism toward Pip or Ron.) When I arrived in London [to join the band for their 1978 Anglo Strike tour], the slow changes, to me, appeared sudden. I thought: "What a bunch of perfumed princes - I'm out of here."

However, I was expecting to pick up some money hauling the (equipment) boxes - which I didn't. I always ended up giving half the cash back to the other roadies for the haul OUT in order to mingle with the females that always were hanging around, hoping for attention. Many of the guys usually either had their girlfriends with them or were so flat out exhausted that they didn't give the attention that the girls sought (which was usually conversation.)

The band was nasty to be around, unless it was one-on-one. The exception there was Warwick, who was like a big broken tooth. Like a raw nerve of unspecific psycho agony. It made you feel that the slightest impression either way would increase his pain, so you didn't even want to look at him.

Deniz was very positive about me staying, I didn't tell him I wanted to split from the program, but he inferred to me that the whole thing was about to fall apart, and had some vague hope that I, being neutral in the intra-band silent tantrum, could help hold it together.

Not a chance.

I soldiered on, and enjoyed seeing England and all that. But the bitchfest got worse. Rob had a real bad case of pre-menstrual tension; it went on for the whole time. Masuak was a "Rock God" - he wore a button with a picture of himself on it (and he meant it.). Warwick was the broken tooth. Pip desperately tried to be cheerful, 'though he seemed on the verge of tears at times. I heard he had a near breakdown later - something to do with customs forms. Ron was in quiet resignation.

Deniz was using his passive aggressive forces at an all-time high. His "lifting the visor" went beyond the pale of any acceptable fraternal conduct. (Lifting the visor is an Ashetonism - it comes from "The Day the Earth Stood Still". The robot would lift his visor and zap his victims with a death ray from his eyes.) Deniz would give this cold glare on people, to put them off balance. He would use other methods as well. What was all the fuss about? Nothing specific. To me it seemed that, it was direct karma for praising themselves for a gift that came through Radio Birdman as a channel. I really believe this. When channeling from a friendly source, one must have humility.

Me? Heck, I tried to avoid the bullshit. The problem they had with me was that I punched out a couple of English who thought spiting and throwing bottles at the band was cute.

Let me take the opportunity to give my more complete view on this incident. I had been given a reprimand and was told ,they didn't want me to act as security. I thought, 'Fine, this is dangerous shit'. I was only about 145-150 lbs - what is that in stone or kilos? - [with] no martial arts training, no big time physical fitness program. One against a mob.. .Well, I wasn't going to lift a finger. Right? .

The Vortex [a London club] was punk headquarters, they weren't going to let some Aussies onto their turf without giving them real shit. So there were these two leaders , one with a Mohawk and his sidekick. Rob and them got into a pissing contest [figuratively speaking]. These guys were heckling, and Rob would cut them to shreds. For these pinheads to try to engage Rob in a verbal battle of wits was a no-contest. Mohawk was loosing face if front of his pack.

The electricity in the place was building rapidly. I could see the mob mind taking over. (It's a weird thing , if you isolate somebody who has been taken into the "mob mind" they get real uncomfortable.) The mob is as primitive as dogs or horses: Who has their will is given over to its master. They can do things like starve in the presence of food, or charge headlong into certain and violent death.

This mob was ready to pop. There was an exchange of beer splashes between Rob and Mohawk, then Rob threw a beer can.  Mohawk lets loose with a longneck bottle whipped at full strength. The mobs salivates, just on the verge to charge and go full stomp.

I'm watching all this, my fight or flight function is selected to FULL MAXIMUM, which certainly had my awareness TIP TOP. So then the instant off truth arrived, when the bottle flew just missing Rob and Deniz's faces. There was no thinking: Mohawk was going to go down. I ran a few yards, like a cricket bowler and put my whole body into it - right on the jaw near the ear. He fell like sack of shit. There I was, surrounded by 100 of his guys. Mobs are cowards. They just stood stunned. I thought: "Fuck! How am I going to get out of this?" I turn on his sidekick, put him in a headlock and pull him over to the bar, and hand him to the bouncer. All the punks were kinda whining: "Let him go, he didn't do anything", and I'm thinking: "They could kill me". My instincts told me I was right [and] I quickly got the hell out of there for backstage.

After the gig , Rob, well, he was real pissed off. He was about to give me a big dose of grief: "WE TOLD YOU... " I cut in, saying: "Don't worry I'm leaving" . Nothing else was said. I split for Spain the next day.

CR: Phew! So 18 years on, did you catch any of the reunion shows? What did you think?

MS: Let me be indirect and include the answers to other questions and non-answers as well. Why? Because many of these details are...quite inconsequential.

The whole business of Radio Birdman and the Visitors - people have responded to the whole thing for quite some time. It's like they are trying to touch something... they must sense something. Some have made a myth out of it.

It's only rock 'n' roll. They were special to me, those times. There were a lot of great gigs, but there was something else that is picked up on by people...a bit of magic...a wee bit of a sense of some exalted brotherly love.

Something of that nature would set it apart from other good rock. There was a bit of that for real, however when it was sensed to be an advantage in attracting the public, The Impostor took over. They wanted it to have the same spirit. It took on the same face, but I thought it was missing something. Perhaps it was all the hype, in the years after disbanding, that they couldn't live up to it? I think it was a subtle thing that was too delicate to hold on to.....

CR: Is The Impostor a turn of phrase for the general hype that started to envelop the band or do you mean someone in particular?

MS: The Impostor is within, within us all. (This is my perception of human nature, I've seen this in myself.) There are moments when we come in touch with something of a fine and higher nature. The ego is delighted, claims it for its own identity, and carries on the behaviour.

Also, when it was lost, an attempt was made to re-animate it. The genuine and the fake coexisted side by side..."There is a struggle inside every human heart between the dark side, and what Lincoln called the better angels of our nature...and good does not always prevail..."

(That's a couple of quotes from Apocalypse Now - the scene where the three-star General is briefing Captain Willard about the Colonel Kurtz problem: "It must be a temptation to play God, being out there with those natives... every man has his breaking point, you and I have a breaking point, and it's obvious Colonel Kurtz has reached his.")

I learned a lot [from Birdman] about crowds, and pack mentality. Also, I see that since this interest has gone on so long, it tells of something else. People are trying to grasp something. Because of a void, a disconnection from one's fellow man, from the earth, from spirit, from God, from self - OH NO! SHIT! WE ARE GETTING DEEP!

This longing is played upon by the likes of the Mickey Mouse Club (you get your ears, buy the merchandise and BELONG.) Also, it's a technique used on soldiers who don't believe in their cause.

I felt a pang of some vague guilt seeing these young people in the '90s whose enthusiasm for the Deniz Tek Group or the Radio Birdman reunion seemed a bit over the top. I didn't know why it felt funny, but later it sank in. I'm not saying there was something wrong with enjoying those gigs - it was when some of them showed some kind of religious devotion....

What is being looked for? Some genuine heart? It can be created by themselves, in their own creation (musical or otherwise), in sports, in devotion to a genuine cause like resisting state tyranny, Communism, socialism, U.N.-ism, state-sponsored sodomy) or a genuine spiritual quest, or even devotion to family.

Reunion gig? It was worth a try, but I think it fell short. I didn't see the out-of-town ones. If people enjoyed it, good. If they (the band) enjoyed doing it, good for them . If the two parties like it, that's all that matters. I'm glad guys like Masuak finally made some real money from all the efforts over the years.

My strongest memory: I was outside Selinas [a large venue in Sydney] and there I saw Carl Rorke, the original Radio Birdman bass player. His speech and motor control is all messed up from this disease. He's trying to tell people: "I was in Birdman." Just barely getting the words out. People are laughing at him. They mocked him, imitating his speech: "IMWraSNNMURDmahn." He WAS in Birdman! I broke into tears. It was like something out of an old movie, it was so unjust. I regained control, and talked to him...told him: "Wait right here, I'll get you a VIP pass." I ran up to the dressing room. Some sort of Big Shot was talking to the guys. I interrupted. I could feel my self starting to get choked up. I interrupted them and then said nothing for a bit. "There is something important......" They're all looking at me weird, like 'Yeah??' When told of the situation, they brought him in straight away.

CR: Without making too big a point of this, I can't help thinking that wasn't this the case with the brief introduction of Radio Birdman's band uniforms? Wasn't that Deniz creating a rallying point when things were in a dip after his return to Australia from a trip home?

MS: Things were roaring along, from what I heard. I don't think they needed a remedy [but] I don't know, I wasn't around.

CR: It was Vivien Johnson's take on it. As an inveterate merchandise buyer myself, I think all of this stuff about tribes wanting to belong is very valid. Is it also valid to say that, within the band circles, it all lost a bit of the gloss when it lost its exclusivity, when others started wearing the badges and T-shirts and patches?

MS: The "belonging" urge is universal. It's neutral - not good or bad - but it can be used to take advantage of people.

Well, Birdman was real enough, then it decayed and died. "Tried too hard and went too far". I think it's all harmless...it's just an observation. Perhaps I sounded more judgmental than I meant. An observation was, of some the UNUSUAL enthusiasm on the part of some. That seemed just a wee bit sad. Like they were sold a bill of goods, or that maybe they still believed in some spirit,that the band no longer had. And maybe that was encouraged...?

I don't see anything wrong with the merch business at all. I like my 'Detroit' stuff. And I like to see the Radio Birdman symbol around. Yeah, I like that, though I don't wear it myself. It makes me feel like there was something special after all. But some of the appeal came from the dark side. It's a subject that interests me (the psychological manipulation business.)

The dark side?

I observed then and since, but then it was happening live, the phenomenon of the mob's attraction to an intimidator. There was a tough guy side to the Birdman/Visitors culture, and some people suck up to things that look tough. Worse still, sometimes, bullying. For instance, I remember the Jimmy Carter years, when the USSR was on the march,they had toppled about eight countries and I remember distinctly how all sorts of people wanted to suck up to them, make excuses for them. Cowardice... I find it sickening.

I personally have more contempt for the weak that suck up to a bully, than I do bullies, but it's only a close second. Bullies are contemptible as well.

You see it in herd animals; the females go to the bull who drives the less dominant male out of the herd. Too much human behavior is basic mammalian and females are just as much beasts as males.

CR: Any contemporary bands during The Visitors days that you had time for?

MS: The LIPSTICK KILLERS !!! They were tops, we scheduled our gigs so there would be never be a conflict. We never wanted to miss them. And didn't.

CR: The Visitors material is really different from Birdman - a lot more room in there. Who, apart from Deniz, were the musical architects and did you guys consciously set out to create a different sound?

MS: (Sisto makes unintelligible grunting sounds in response to this question, vaguely affirmative but as to what, it cannot be ascertained.)

Oh yes, Deniz did deliberately create a different sound, for having a different singer. I discovered how different it was at the Comrades of War thing - Birdman vocals were rapid and better delivered loud. Visitors vocals,had more room to inflect, smear around and [had] space for addlibbing. I was rather impressed Deniz could do that. I thought if a song arrived you'd just have to take what you got.

CR: Your set is pretty well replicated on the Palm Studio sessions, I believe, so what covers did you do live?

MS: (Short grunt, perhaps in response in bringing attention on his memory recall limits.)